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Disclaimer: The views and opinions expressed in the blog posts are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect the views or opinions of Hnub Tshiab: Hmong Women Achieving Together.

Tuesday, October 30, 2012

Bride Price



 
Yes, I knew that my father was much more progressive than most Hmong men.  I didn’t know it while I was growing up but I later learned that my father broke with traditions with how he and my mother choose to raise their daughters.  My parents instilled traditional Hmong values in their children but they were progressive in all other ways.  Even with this knowledge, when I got married and my parents did not ask for a bride price, I have to say I was a little bit upset.  Quite upset actually.

I was going into this marriage with a college education, a car, a good job and $10,000 which I had saved up myself for my wedding.  By all accounts of what I had heard, my fiancé at that time should have paid at least $10,000 for me.  Okay, let’s take a step back.  I understand the traditional meaning for a bride price.  And yes, I understand that this made women seem like a commodity that could be bought and owned but in this day and age, it seemed to me that the bride price had come to symbolize something much different.  The more valuable you were as a woman, the more contribution you could make to your husband’s family, the more they were willing to ensure your love and care with a large dowry.  I mean I had a friend in college who was doing her residency when she got married and her husband paid $20,000 for her.   Girls with bachelor’s degree, those girl’s  in-laws were willing to insure their son’s offspring’s intellectual security by paying tens of thousands of dollars for girls with this level of education.

I had been a good, faithful Hmong daughter who turned down job offers in other states to return home to live with my parents after college.  I did not party nor did I date many men.  When my fiancé wanted to marry me I did not follow him home.  I honored my parents by having his family bring elders to ask for my hand.  I had friends and relatives who had daughters who were considered “bad” girls, they ditched school, dated, played, and disrespected their families and elders and those girl’s families were asking for an average bride price of $5,000.  What did that make me?  I could not help but feel like my father did not think I was worth anything.  As much as the elders pushed my parents to take a dowry (and there was history between the families in which my father and clan would have been in the right to punish my fiancé’s family), my parent’s refused.  I felt even more upset when the $10,000 I had saved was counted as assets my parents gave to me to start my new life.  Was I wrong for being upset?  

By Anonymous

34 comments:

  1. I am confuse on the issue you are upset about. Is it that your parents did not take a dowry? Or is it that your dowry came out to zero which was lower than the usual "bad" girl dowry? Or was it that they counted your assests as your parents? Please clarify.

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    1. Unbelievable how a so called educated woman priced your ownself! For lack of a better English term for this Hmong culture, it's a "token" of appreciation to the bride's parents given by the groom's side. By the way, giving more money does not guarantee a better daughter in law as if paying more for a Merdedes Benz. Being a wife and daughter in law is so much more than a piece of paper that says "Bachelor's degree".

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  2. Don't mistaken a symbolic gesture for centuries of oppression. If you really want to know why your parents did not ask for a bride price you should just talk to them, but the so called bride price has continued to be an oppressive practice that has been the scapegoat of many acts of abusive in marriages where the man, the family,and the clan on both sides have accepted the abuses that women have endured.

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  3. Thanks for sharing. You have the right to feel upset in that context, this is especially true if you change the phrase "bride price", "dowry", to something more perspective. For example, "token" or "mother's love". I think alot of people do not understand the English word "dowry". Hmong wedding have dowry but not from the groom's side. It's always from the bride's side. I encourage to use it correctly so as to avoid misrepresentation to other culture out there.

    Hmong girls are not property. The token is meant to be an indicator of seriousness from the groom for a wife and not a sex toy. If your groom is not strong enough to provide the mother's token - he is not worthy of a marriage - another, not ready to be a husband. We all want to marry a husband, not a man. All boys will be men but not all men will be husbands.

    Peace.

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  4. To answer your question, no. It's your feelings and there's no such thing as wrong feelings. If that's how you feel about the situation then those are your true feelings.

    Let me offer another perspective, I'm not married but I've had this conversation (about bride price) with my mom after my older sister's wedding. What she told me changed my perspective and helped me better understand what the bride price means for my parents. You see, at my sister's wedding, my parents didn't want to name a price (my sister just received her Masters + well paying job) however, my grandpa said $5,000, no more no less. Yes, you bet my sister was furious but the wedding happened anyways.

    Afterwards, I asked my mom if I got marry one day what would be my price? She responded, no one wants to ever "sell" their daughter. Even tho you will no longer live with me, serve me and care for me the same way, you my daughter, will always be my life. Without you home, it feels empty. If I name a price for you, money matters will only add difficulties in your life with your in-laws. You are far more valuable than money or any amount they can pay.

    Look beyond the bride price and understand the love your parents have for you. Ask your parents your questions. Your in-laws may not see it because of the missing/low bride price but your worth is for you to determine. No one else can tell you how much you're worth respecting, loving and/or care for. Don't let the bride price get the best of your new journey.

    One more note, bride price and dowry are two different things. People use them interchangeably but please note they each have different meaning. Bride price is what you're talking about, dowry is the amount of gifts and assets given to you for your new life.

    Best luck!

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  5. If you love your fiance then why would you want to press charges for him to pay for the dowry? I thought the dowry is going to contribute for your new life anyways.

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  6. Well, to make this clear, do you still have younger brothers or sisters who are still in need from your parents? Do your parents work? If so, do they make more money than you? If yes to all of these or few of these than you should talk to your parents about it. But from what I understand from few parents is that, since I make more money, they don't give away alot of dowry. why? because I have all the tools i need to find better jobs, i will make even more money than them. So, they rather save whatever they have for others (brothers, sisters) who are still in need. Being upset does not solve your problem. Better yet, talk to your mom.

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  7. My Father-in-law did not have any of his son-in-laws pay a bride price for his daughters. His reasoning is that when the husband's family pays for a bride, she becomes a member of her husband's family and all their hard work will be for that family only. What he wanted was for his daughter and son-in-law to be in his family as well and help him when he needs it. It is all in your perspective. Your parents have a reason - you should ask them.

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  8. We have been culturally constructed to believe that our value as a Hmong woman amounts to a price. When in fact, we are priceless and irreplaceable. I believe the bride price has grown to become a leverage between two families to preserve love in a relationship especially in its most challenging moments. Maybe, your parents are planting a seed of new ideals and values. It is true that they did not accept a bride price but it is also true that they love you unconditionally.

    Your parents have done this, taken a huge risk (in the cultural context because there is no leverage and no repercussions). As they love you unconditionally, they expect the same for your new family. There should be no leverage in love but simply to do right by a person (without conditions). You have the right to be angry and upset because you've been constructed to feel this way. For whatever it is worth, you are valuable and worthy!

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  9. I understand you being "educated" and seeking a dowry price, but at the same time, you have to be mindful of your parents' wishes too. It's not the actual exchange of money, but the symbolic meaning behind it. I would say talk to your parents and understand what and why they are not seeking a dowry. At the same time, express your views as well. Someday you'll understand the worth of your parents; I'm not saying you don't, but I would stress communication is the key in this situation.

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  10. Thank you to the person who clarified the meaning of bride price and dowry. Personally I would not inflict a bride price on my daughters. I got married young and whenever my inlaws were unhappy with me they would use that against me, "We paid XXX for her and she can't even do this right". There was serious emotional damage that occurred when a number was put on my value (or lack of value).
    I eventually divorced him and got remarried 10 years later. Since I was a divorcee, my bride price had gone down significantly. My new inlaws told my husband he would have to pay for the majority of the wedding and I said why don't we just pay for it all since we were both financially well off? Looking back, I am glad we did that. My new inlaws are kind and I love them but I am secretly relieved that they will never use the, "We paid XXX for her" line against me since we paid for everything ourselves. I never want to inflict that kind of pain on my daughters or daughters in law.

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  11. and please don't have children because you are just going to teach them that they are only worth what price people put on them. Just in case you were wondering, I am an educated, self-sufficient Hmong woman.

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  12. How selfish are you? You want to put your another family in debt, to fulfill a backwards and oppressive tradition because you think you are so valuable and “educated”! Do you even love this guy? Unless your fiancé is a huge loser and is bringing nothing to the marriage, it is very petty to list all of your assets, “I was going into this marriage with a college education, a car, a good job and $10,000 which I had saved up myself for my wedding” and to use that to justify how much you think he should pay for you.
    It really seems like you think that having a substantial bride price is a badge of honor and want the whole world to know how much they paid for you. I am sorry but your modern interpretation of bride price is just as demeaning to women as the traditional meaning of bride price.
    Look I get it; you are well educated, driven, and successful but you shouldn’t need to define your self-worth by a bride price. If a bride price effects your self-worth that much then you have bigger self-esteem issues that need to be addressed. In the end, it should only be about you and your fiancé building a life together. Marriage is about love not money so if that’s all that concerns you then please don’t get married especially when there are so many people (LBGT) are fighting for that right.
    Please don't have children because you are just going to teach them that they are only worth what price people put on them.
    If you are so concerned about your personal assets then just make him sign a prenup.
    Just in case you were wondering, I am an educated, self-sufficient Hmong woman.

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    1. Wow! Why so angry? Sounds like you are a real hater. You have to give this girl some respect. How many Hmong girls accumulate this much in assets before they even get married? She obviously has good values since she went to college, saved money and didn't get pregnant at 15 like so many other Hmong girls. Great values to pass on to children. With so much resentment towards someone else's success, maybe you aren't fit to have kids.

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    2. A little harsh but I think she is on point.

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    3. I have no resentment towards her success. It just strikes me that for someone claiming to be educated; she would define her own success by how much her family should be paid for her hand in marriage and be so materialistic about her marriage. I am not a hater, I am just being real.

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    4. Why would that surprise you? Hmong culture instills in girls that their worth is based on how well they execute their Hmong girl role. How pure they have been and how giving they are of themselves. The only thing they have at the end of all their sacrifice to support their parents and the sons in the family is how much someone is going to pay for them in the end. Education doesn't take away the emotional baggage that people acquire through life or the oppression they have experienced. That's like saying everyone who has an education should be a Democrat. Education should have opened their minds to see how backwards and oppressive towards minority and women the Republican and church is. If you claim to be educated you should be able to understand the psychology behind it instead of attack. We should be working to change the Hmong culture. Not ridicule the victims of it.

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  13. The bride prices for all the daughter in laws in my husband's family ranged from $1,500-$10,000. I have heard that the expensive one (apparently not me) brags about her bride price. What does this do for competition among the nyabs? I am very comfortable in my marriage and my relationship with my in-laws so I don't let the disparity bother me but I wonder how my sister in laws feel about it. I think it's just another opportunity for Hmong women to be pitted against each other, which is what we need to get away from.

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  14. Lost in translation about this topic. I have always wonder when someone will comes up with a better translation for our Hmong heritage of asking for "nyiaj nqi mis nqi no" because BRIDE PRICE and DOWRY are not the correct translation for our Hmong heritage. I think that as educated Hmong women and men, we need to sit down and think through some of the translation of our heritage values so that new generation will have a better understanding of the values of such practice. This posting clearly show the lack of the understanding of the importance of our Hmong heritage. Once we understand the value, the author of this blog would understand that like a piece of valuable, it is priceless. Thus, in asking for nothing from her financee's husband, it is a symbolic that my daughter is WORHT MORE THAN MONEY VALUE that she is PRICELESS.

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    1. Well said. So true.

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    2. I don't think we need to better understand our Hmong heritage. It's clear that most people understand it well enough. We should not try to preserve the practices; rather, we should (as some have started) have critical analysis about the values that are worth keeping and then ask how families are keeping those values alive. Culture is ever changing and it is not stagnant. There is no "right" way to define the marital negotiations process and attempting to prescribe it would perpetuate Hmong stereotypes.

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  15. I don't know why some people are being so harsh to the woman who wrote the blog. Her thoughts and feelings stem from our (Hmong) upbringing that if we are good girls one day our parents will marry us off with a decent brideprice. I understand many of us are very modern and progressive and don't believe in this now but this idea of a brideprice is what we grew up to know and expect for ourselves. She has every right to question her parent's decision.

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    1. I totally agree with you. This isn't an issue about bride price. You can tell one person to get over themselves but that wouldn't change the fact that our culture, there are some real systemic issues going on here. Girls are taught to be good, why? All so that they are suitable for marriage to a good family. People who are directing hate towards this girl should be mad at Hmong culture and oppressive nature in which we raise our girls. You make a great point.

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  16. bottom line, you are just jealous that your friend got $20,000 for her and in your eyes you got nothing for you.

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    1. What an ignorant assumption. Having a baseline to compare is how everything gets measured. You do it everyday, your employer does it to you, everyone around you is doing it and having it done to them.

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    2. Yes, measuring yourself up against a monetary value is so healthy and normal!

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    3. Healthy, questionable. Normal, yes. Do you work for free? Your wage/salary, is a measurement of your worth. Your education, your experience, how you've conducted yourself thus far, that's what your wage is based on. We've all been at that place in life where you find out your peers make more money than you do and you all do the same job. Anyone would react the same way this author did. Unless you work for free I suggest you not pretend that you are above all of this.

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    4. Yeah, and guess what, your pay increases when you have a college degree. If education didn't matter then people wouldn't need to go to college. If we are going to continue the bride price policy college should be a factor. College is hard and you work your ass off. Why shouldn't you expect to get paid for having one. Like Kay said, whether we like it or not we are part of this. You think an employer will pay a high school graduate the same as a college graduate?

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  17. Well, what did your parents say when you asked them about it? If you haven't asked, you should.

    I'm just saying, it sounds like you are harboring a bruised ego. I mean, wasn't this something you should have discussed with your parents beforehand? I'm sure they have a reasonable explanation if you'd be willing to listen. I for one would just say, consider yourself lucky without the added expense of the bride price. If it helps, I've known quite a few families that have broken away from this tradition as they have found it quite unnecessary and to be frank, I plan to join the ranks. I could never place a value on any of the children I love so there's no point!

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    1. Also, can I just say as a self educated self sufficient Hmong woman of 31 who has never been married and does not have any children, I am having a hard time trying to figure out why you feel that those are the only qualifications you need in order to wrack up a $10,000 bride price?

      Sure, I have no degree but I am well read and am probably smarter than half the people I know that have degrees (okay more than half but I'm trying for modesty here). I ditched school, in fact, I missed an entire year yet maintained a 3.5 GPA and ranked 33 out of 400 students. I like to get my drunk on every so often to blow off a little steam (but in a safe environment with people I trust).

      I am NOT a virgin because GASP I enjoy sex and I think I give a pretty good blow job (yes, I went there! I'm just trying to be real here) but am selective in my partners and have never had an STD. I also harbor a strong belief in condoms so much so that I have been known to turn down sex if none were available (although I suppose you could also attribute this to my little phobia of STDs which I think everyone should have).

      I am exremely loyal and protective of the people I love. I have a great affinity for adventure and fun. I dislike drama. I am responsible. I have a car, a new one at that, and some money saved up. I have been told that I will make an excellent mother and while I beg to differ (again with the modesty!)I do love children and am extremely patient (except when it comes to adults behaving like children). I amy highly empathetic and believe in giving people the benefit of the doubt instead of judging a book by its cover, something I work very hard at.

      As much as I love adventure and fun, I am also a homebody and do not feel the urge to party every day of my life. I enjoy the little things as much as the big ones. I CAN cook pretty much anything and I do it well. I have great respect and love for my elders. I hate to clean but will try my best to be neat and to help clean. I am thoughtful and forever placing others ahead of me, yet I am selfish and unapologetically so because I fell in love with YOLO!

      I am awesome at portrait drawings. I am crafty and can make love out of nothing at all. My brain is loaded with a thousand useless but fun facts. If anything, I will make life more interesting, minus the drama.

      I have a wonderful family that will only enrich whoever marries into our family. Behind me stands an entire city of friends I've collected along the way and worked very hard to foster relationships with each and every individual.

      My credit score is being built up after taking a few hits and I have been steadily climbing the ladder at my workplace despite my lack of degree.

      So yeah, I'm pretty awesome plus a bag of chips.

      LOL.

      I'm just saying, to those of you that bothered to read this entire response, it's fracking hard to place a value on someone. I can't help but feel we are all so priceless. So stop feeling so hurt, talk to your parents and take that money and put it towards something useful. I mean, after all, YOLO!

      :)

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    2. You must be feeling really inadequate for not having a degree. That can be the only explanation as to why you would feel the need to write down every quality you feel makes you a good/valuable person. People who go to college work hard to get their degree. You can be smart but unfortunately, if you don't have a degree, society knows that you don't have the determination, resilience or dedication to commit to and follow through with a challenge of this caliber. Diminish an education all you want but unless you have one, you are exclude from opportunities by society. Right or wrong, that's the truth.

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    1. Woops, this was meant for anonymous poster that responded on October 31, 2012 at 1:52PM.

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  19. I understand that you felt your worth was much more than others with no degree but don't you think that everyone's daughter is precious to them no matter what degree they got or not? Also what makes you think that just because you have a degree, a job, and 10,000$ of your own that you are better than anyone else and that you will be a good daughter in law?
    To me, my dowry feels like I was sold to my in laws to be treated in whatever way they wanted because they paid for me. That I had to cook, clean, make babies, dress the way they wanted me to, not go out with my family and friends, stay quiet when they yelled at me or when they're son treated me like cr*p, etc. because they paid $ for me.

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